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Respecting Honey Holes and Message Board Etiquette

Discussion in 'Steelhead Talk' started by saintmathew, Feb 10, 2005.

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  1. I want to know what you guys think about possibly refraining from giving away specific locations of runs or holes in Lake Erie tribs for Steelhead. I am not trying to make a big deal out of this, but simply wanting to know what the reast of the board has to say about it.

    Quite often I read posts, tips, or news on the net that have pretty much give away info on a hole or run that had been producing fairly well. I have to admit that in the past I have taken the advice myself and upon arriving at these locations I find myself feeling very un-welcome by unfamiliar faces who look like they wat to kill me. Well, now I understand why they felt that way.

    One of the reasons I chose to join a club like TU or OCBS was to learn ways to stop this kind of thing and better ways to preserve the sport, species, and enviornment. Ever since I was a kid I was taught to respect these things and not devulge info on "honey holes" except to those I know who carry the same values of respect for Steelheading that I do.

    The DNR stocks certain streams and rivers with a certain number of fish every year. It is mostly these fish and other migrating Steelhead which are caught. The wild Salmonids are getting less and less each year. Most of the stocked fish spend two summers in the Lake before they are caught and a good number of 29-30 pounders and over can be caught each year as well. Certain measures must be taken to see the quality of the sport is respected by more and more anglers and the quantity of the fish is maintained.

    Greedy "fishermen" have no respect for these values and too often these kinds of people have shown up at holes and runs I frequent in way too large of numbers. At times, you have what we call "butchers" show up with surf rods and weighted snaggers, and are only after the meat. Several times I have had to witness large female carcasses being left on the bank with thier eggs gutted out. This kind of thing also often leads to a peacful river or protected stream to be littered and trashed in many other ways. I know the media and net are great places to find fishing spots, but since we are dealing with such a growing sport in ohio, maybe we can keep our tips to a minimum and not give away "specifics."

    The guys I fish with try to keep it at a "word of mouth" level to keep a run from being overcrowded and trashed. I truly don't know what to do about this problem anymore. All I know is all of us are getting sick of our cars being broken into, our gear stolen, hearing "you gonna keep that?", having landowners property trespassed on, seeing guys keep more than thier lawful limit, and having a guy standing 3 feet from me and casting a 10 pound weighted float into the same run I am fishing. These are just some of the problems guys who truly respect and value the sport and species face, just some of the problems.

    There are only a limited number of tributaries and acess points to these tribs, but a growing number of anglers thanks to the internet and media. What I suggest is that we not speak of specifics when it comes to where certain fish were caught. It is fine to give the name of the trib, but when you give out a specific location you just may be giving out a spot that another angler does not want to be given out. Pretty soon after that we have chaos and fights and maybe worse. One guy was shot in a trib I fish quite often last year. Yeah, pretty lame, but it happens. Try using the PM method with only people you can trust and keep your details to a minimum amount of people. Well, I have done enough talking. What do you guys think?

    NOTE: No member, mod, or anyone affliated with this site is being personally attacked. If you feel that way, contact me right away through PM or email me. Do not express those feeling on the boards. These are just my thoughts. We can discuss it without getting volatile. If that happens, I am not going to be a part of the discussion. No intention is being made to accuse anyone of anything. This is just matter that I believe needs to be discussed to further a more peacful Steelheading experience, to educate, preserve the sport and species. Thank you.

    PS. I am heading out to the east to fish a few "ditches" if anyone wants to hook up. I will be fishing some new places and could use any tips from that area, let me know. PM me and I will let you know where we'll be.

    Some helpful links to check out as well:
    Combat Fishing:
    http://www.ohiosteelheaders.com/Articles_Combat_Fishing.htm

    Stream Rage:
    http://www.ohiosteelheaders.com/Articles_rules_of_the_rive.htm

    Stream Etiquette:
    http://www.steelheading101.com/etiquette.html

    The Ideal Steelheader:
    http://www.steelheading101.com/idealsteelheader.htm

    Thank you much,
    Mathew
     
  2. I must admit I didn't have time to read all of your post. If someone wants to give a spot let them and if they don't, thats OK too. You yourself have used these posts to find good fishing spots, thats what this sight's about. I think its great to see a spot posted I haven't been to and going and trying it out.
    You'll see idiots fighting at any fish run, thats been going on longer than I've been around. I was at some runs in Ca. that between the fishing and the fighting you were guaranteed a whole day of entertainment. I post good spots on here sometimes but not all of them.
     

  3. Saintmathew,

    Your points apply to all fishing and fishing areas. Look at the post where someone is pimping a "hot" steelhead spot and ask yourself if they have a vested interest ($) in doing so. They are way to many meathunters and poor sportsmen lurking and looking for info on spots to pillage - it is irresponsible to post highly detailed specifics IMO.
     
  4. The same happens with the waterfowl boards.
    The Internet has cut out most of the foot work needed to be succsesfull.
    Just post up as genneral area if you feel the need to spread the word.
    Let them do some walking and tossing to find them.
    Maybe they will stumble into a hot spot and give the GPS #'s on it
     
  5. For me - alot of the fun is the learning curve...but for many they want instant gratification and likely would not respect the spot nor fish/game. I spent 6 years reading and learning a particular waterway's spots and seasonal patterns to catch trophies almost at will. You can bet I will go to the grave before I tell some meathunter the spots. Many of today's slobs find no pleasure in the "hunt" and IMO aren't true sportsman. "Trophy" game farms and "trophy" pay ponds are the apex of this sorry trend.
     
  6. flathunter

    flathunter Mellons mentor

    Try and never give away specific locations.
     
  7. Ðe§perado™

    Ðe§perado™ Catfisherman/Bowfisherman

    I don't give away locations where I'm catching fish. But if a fellow fisherman wants to go with me I don't mind and that keeps down crowds and greedy fisherman.
     
  8. Whaler

    Whaler Whaler

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    As you say there are only certain places of access to the tributaries to fish for Steelhead and only so many pools to fish in, so as bad as it may seem these have to be shared. While sharing, the anglers need to be courteous and respectful of each other. Anglers don't need to tell others where the fish are but if others show up there they have the same right to fish there as anyone else whether they belong to club or not. The State stocks the Steelhead annually for everyone who has a fishing license to fish for, and the anglers all have the same right to fish anywhere legally accessable that is open to the public. So we must share all of the fish and the fishing sites when necessary, but do so in a courteous and ethical manner.
     
  9. I agree with Master Angler. A lot of the fun I get from fishing is the preparation and learning that go along with it. There is no reason to give away specific locations on a lake or stream. For the steelhead rivers, I think giving away the section of the river is ok, like saying the upper Grand or lower Rocky, etc. For lakes, the depth and general area of a lake are enough (i.e. the fish were in 10' of water in the northern section of X lake). If someone wants more than that, they are looking for a free ride.

    St Mathew helped me on my first trip to the Rocky in December. Mathew gave some general guidance and my dad and I did quite a bit of walking and found the best areas after that. We had a fun day exploring a new river and catching some fish. Thank you again Mathew for the help.

    Joel
     
  10. Dingo

    Dingo

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    "St Mathew helped me on my first trip to the Rocky in December"

    That's the way it should work, especially in a overfished or fragile fishery. I personally don't talk numbers or explicit areas in a public forum. Lower/mid/upper river, head of rapids/holes/tailouts, type of bait used, and general depth should be enough to provide a pretty clear picture for anyone catching river fish, including steelhead.

    In a public forum, hundreds, or more, can view and act upon a posting with explicit information. I have personally witnessed a small trib on mostly private property go from nearly empty, except for a few locals, to jam packed after an explicit posting on another site. From two to over two-dozen people within a day on a stream that you can jump across without getting wet during low-water conditions is no cooincidence.

    Meeting with someone streamside is a different story. Once you find out what the person/people are interested in (solitary experience with lower numbers or in the crowds with a chance at higher numbers), the type of skill level, and tackle preference, I can fish the spot that best serves their needs. Take a first time steelheader to Elk or Walnut creeks (PA) in the fall, for example, and they may be turned off by the ridiculous crowds and poor streamside manners, while someone after 'big numbers' may love that scene.

    I hate to sound like an "old timer", but, back before the internet, we had to depend on experience and a good network of folks for stream conditions to make our decisions. We weren't spoon fed niformation as many are today. The only public information (the newspaper) was often dated and somewhat eratic. Now, read through the local boards a few days before the weekly fishing reports are posted in the newspaper, and you will notice that they are quite the same. Nowadays, the outdoor journalist no longer has to pound the pavement to put together a fishing report -- all they have to do is search a few forums.
     
  11. IMO, It takes very little time, effort and money for a novice angler to learn enough about catching steelhead in Erie's tribs to start hauling them in like tuna. All that's really required is for the run itself to begin. That's where the internet comes in -- it acts as sort of a starter's pistol. Same is true with walleye on the maumee or saugeye below a spillway. To me, river fishing should be for the purist who wants to get away from the crowds and find their own slice of heaven. If those spots are no longer available up to the first dam then maybe it's time to switch to native trout and move on to another stream.

    I agree though. It's not hard to post a useful fishing report that won't end up causing a stampede.
     
  12. I hate to say it but this is the type of fishery it has become. Who wouldn't want to catch a fish of a lifetime in your own backyard. For the size and quality of the fish you would have to fish the wild rivers out west or Alaska. I have fly fished quite a few places in the US and Canada and feel blessed that I am smack in the middle of some of the best inland steelhead fishing in the United States. This is not a new thing about fishing pressure. I fished the BigHorn, San Juan River, Yellowstone, Missouri River, Upper Delaware, Steelhead and salmon rivers in New York State just to name a few and if you want to see pressure try fishing some of them. How would you like to pay a guide for a float trip and maybe have two runs to yourself in fifteen miles of drifting. You are always fishing behind someone that has already beat up the water . And if you think that there is any secret spots on these rivers, well there's not. They even give names to some of the fish. :D :D You can also see the holes in thier mouths from how many they have been caught :mad: :mad: Would I fish these places again? No!!, but I am glad that I did. I don't think you can blame the people that post here for all the pressure on the rivers. Take a look at Infisherman magazine and other publications. Talk about putting fishing pressure on a location. I even seen a spot on the Outdoor channel about the Ohio Steelhead fishing with a picture of a guy holding a huge steelhead on one of the rivers. Now you have people from the whole country seeing it. There are some that abuse the fishery but what I have seen they are few and far between. As far as fishing shoulder to shoulder thats the type of fishing you have to get used to . I only had maybe a couple of times that I was pushed out of a hole so I would step back wait for them to leave step back in and catch the fish that they could'nt get to hit. If you are looking to river fish by yourself,you can have the whole place to yourself after the steelhead run ends. There are other fish to catch that are just as fun with the right kind of tackle........JIM
     
  13. Share the wealth...
     

  14. You have some good Ideas, if I remember right you had a post on here once trying to bring Christians together . You might want to consider starting a christian fishing site that allows cussing in the posts but no specifics on fishing spots. :rolleyes: Why do you get to tell us how to post? I knew about the spot behind CEI and I live 2 hrs away, although I've yet to fish it.. Nice weather always brings a crowd too. If you haven't seen this at Erie before apparently you haven't been to Maumee or Freemont and they were battling there when I was an infant. There's only a few bad eggs out there on a whole, I think it needs to be taken up with them and not all blamed on this site and a bait shop. Thats just my opinion.
     
  15. KSUFLASH

    KSUFLASH respect our rivers please

    I am a bit confused here. Aren't steelhead a put and take resource? I mean they are stocked by the thousands every year in the Erie streams. Am I being asked to not post specific locations and about how I did a paticular day? Is it assumed that a honey hole is personal possesion and sole rights too it?

    I am speaking for myself only here, but I hardly steelhead fish due to the perception I have gained over the past few years. Seems to me at times there are a few bad apples in the bunch that ruin the fun for me. I don't like to be elbow to elbow when fishing, I don't like seeing trash, and I don't want my vehicle broken into. But one thing I definatly don't want and wont stand for is being told or restricted on a fishing site telling me how to word a fishing post. Those whom wish to be a part of a site that tells them how to post fishing reports, by all means go for it.

    I am confident that 99.99999% of the members on OGF are good sportsman/women and the preaching is to the wrong crowd.

    I don't think you have to worry about me being on the bank taking up the suposid Honey Hole, as I will be fishing the river for Pike that are not stocked in the rivers.

    So I guess my true question to someone is a good explaination on all the fuss when we are talking about a steelhead that is stocked in the rivers to catch?

    flash---------------------------------------out
     
  16. Ok, what I thought could be a mature discussion has turned into something else. This is not at all what I intended by bringing this topic up. The discussion, as a whole, has been pretty good until Action had to open a can of worms. Let me say something to you my friend:

    To expect someone to be "perfect" and not swear just because they are a Christian is absurd! I am human clay, just like you and therefore I am prone to error. I do not want to get into a Christian discussion, as it is against the TOS here at OGF, so drop it now, but I apologize for my "bad example".

    Second of all, Bait Dave was contacted about the posting. He has admitted he made a mistake and understands where the people who were bothered by it were coming from. None of us harbor any bad feelings against him. The issue with him is OVER and that is not why this was started! So drop it! No one here has anything against him or any OGF member or mod. I think I said that in the beginning.

    Third of all I know how the Maumee and Fremont area can get. I grew up in Toledo on Hudson Street. I have fished that area many times.

    This is/was a discussion about how the media and internet has affected the overcrowding of the Ohio Steelhead Fishery. It is about the problems associated with that overcrowding and what we can do to improve the situation. What we have been discussing is this. Here is an example:

    Say you fish the Rocky in a certain spot that is frequented by many anglers at a time, especially veteran anglers who have been fishing that hole for 20 plus years. Say you do exceptionally well that day, ok? What we have been suggeting is to post a report that is simply giving water conidtions, bait/fly used, whether, species, size, and name of trib only. If you give all that info, plus the exact location in the trib of where that fish was caught, you are putting that hole that has been peacful for years at risk of becoming another site of river rage. When you give away that kind of info you have to realize you are telling the rest of the net as well. No one here is telling anyone what to do and neither is anyone trying claim "personal possesion" to "honey holes". The thing some of you are not keeping in mind is that it is not that guys do not want to share spots that are producing well. They just don't want 25 guys hitting the same hole that has been "first come/first serve" for years. That needs to be respected and understood.

    Most Steelheaders who have been around awhile will tell you they hate the net and would rather get tips by word of mouth. Toss a tip/email/pm/im/phone call over to a buddy or two after you fish that day that you fished here or there and you did pretty good, but when you use a public forum to do that, the whole world sees it. Then, the next day, the whole world shows up at that spot and people get pissed, fights break out, littering happens, you get people who are only after meat, and all kinds of madness. Is this so difficult to understand?

    Hey, do whatever you want, because no on wants a fight here or anyone thinking anyone is telling anyone what to do. There is no dam reason this discussion can't stay on a healthy level.

    If people are going to see this as a personal attack, than please PM someone and talk to them. I don't like being judged or attacked on the boards. Please know that no one is trying to do that to anyone here on OGF or anywhere else. It is simply a DISCUSSION and if it continues we need to keep things peaceful and healthy.

    Mathew
     
  17. I honestly do not recall too many "specific honey holes" being mentioned on here in regards to steelhead fishing. I wish there were, I'd be there the next day :) But internet or no internet, it's the nature of the beast. By stocking hundreds of thousands of these in the rivers every year, word is going to get out, and it's going to be crowded no matter what. I talk to a lot of fisherman on the rivers and piers, and it's weird becuase I'll mention OGF, and they'll look at me like I'm some kind of freak. "OGF, what's that, some kind of flying saucer"? So I think we are overestimating the number of OGF fishermen out there on the rivers. I would appreciate it if someone were to show me some posts on here that mentioned specific honey holes. And even if there were a lot, I wouldn't want this to turn into steelheadsite.com where you get tonguelashed and treated like some kind of societal deviant for saying you fished a small trib on the eastern part of Cleveland. Anyone that reads that site knows how good we have it here on OGF. When I post how I did, I just say the river, what I used, how many I caught, and that's about it. To me, it seems like that's what most of the posts on here consist of. I will tell certain locations via a PM, and I have taken many OGFers with me to my honey hole.

    I know you said this has nothing to do with what Dave Bait said, so I'm curious what triggered this discussion. There is nothing secret about the powerplants. Most steelheaders know they are there, but most don't want to fish them because they are very crowded. I fish them because I'm not into ice fishing yet, and it's better than sitting at home watching bad tv. I would like to go there this weekend and ask how many went there because they saw it posted on OGF.

    I think we also need to decide what the true defintion of a honey hole is. I don't think the Avon Powerplant is a honey hole. I also don't think saying "I caught two at the Morley Ford" is posting about a honey hole either. Those are popular spots, and are going to be crowded whether the internet was around or not.

    Most hardcore OGF'ers know better than to post about a true honey hole. No personal attacks here, but telling people how they can and cannot post is just going to rub a lot of them the wrong way.
     
  18. Character Zero

    Character Zero Smallie Phan

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    IMO, there isnt anything wrong with ANYONE telling everyone where the bite is... come on, fish huron pier once in the fall, you'll find out what is up... there is nothing wrong with making a new fisherperson's day by latching on to something that they thought that they would never catch. stop acting like pirates and share the wealth......getting all jacked up over a spot isnt really good sportsmanship...........
     
  19. BigDaddy300

    BigDaddy300 multi species angler

    My fishing time is very limited so if I'm into something good I don't tell anyone. I don't have the time to be fighting for a spot. But on the other hand I will take someone who wants to catch fish and put in my exact spot so that they may catch the fish. I just love it when they experience the rush that I get when catching those fish.
     
  20. donkey

    donkey Permanent Part Time

    Where is this place that you call the Rock located?
     
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