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Problem on a big day

Discussion in 'Southwest Ohio Fishing Reports' started by BigSmallieMike, Apr 26, 2008.

  1. Had a really nice day hitting smallies on a local trib - Dad and I went out this morning and had an outstanding day. 20+ fish averaging between 12 - 16" were in hand.

    We were on fish for the majority of the day and it appears that we are officially in prespawn. We were slaying aggressive fat females and noticed that males were staking out and defending bedding spots in slack water.

    Quick question on reel maintenance - I got a little ahead of myself getting a fish off and didn't realize that my reel had been submerged during the exercise. Whenever this happens to me, the reel seems to seize up and it becomes incredibly difficult to operate the reeling mechanism. I get the feeling that the water interacts badly with the bearing grease, but I'm curious if anyone else has this problem and any workarounds (aside from not getting the reel wet - ha ha). I'm inclined to regrease the bearings, but I'm wondering if this is really the issue. Any thoughts will be appreciated.
     
  2. Wiper Swiper

    Wiper Swiper Banned

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    Are you talking about a Shimano spinning reel?
     

  3. You can not wade fish without running into that problem. I have found that the only thing to solve the problem is to clean, oil, and grease the reel. But if someone out there knows an on/in water solution I would love to hear it. I have done the same thing first in the morning only to spend the rest of the day working the reel instead of it working for me.
     
  4. Tall cool one

    Tall cool one strictly flyfishing

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    I don't have/use a spinning reel but one flyreel I have if I dip it the drag grease gets "foamy" and it's stiff to operate when the spinning gears blend the grease and water. What a mess. I open it up and clean it out and regrease or it takes forever to dry up and go back to "normal",It has the "red" colored grease so check to see if that's what you have.Don't know what it is but I don't like the way it reacts to water.TC1
     
  5. Wiper Swiper

    Wiper Swiper Banned

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    BigMike, I wish you'd let us know if yer talkin' about Shimbindo's because there are inherent binding problems with some of their spinning reels when they get wet. Has to do with a nylon bushing that swells when wet.

    As for "red grease", there may be others, but the only one I know about is "Hot Sauce", and it, along with the oil are the best reel lubricants on the market. IMHO
     
  6. Sorry to report that this is not a Shimano but a Gander Guide Series reel. Not sure about bushing elastomers, but that's why I was asking as this is a good point.

    Does this Hot Sauce have a different composition than the standard aluminum grease implied by the red color? I'm thinking of trying a Citgo lithium grease (lithoplex) to see if the extra water resistance in lithium greases is effective here. I have seen this used in a past professional life, but I'm not sure if it has appropriate lubricity as this is an automotive bearing grease.
     
  7. Tall cool one

    Tall cool one strictly flyfishing

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    The reel w/ the "red" grease originally came w/ lithium grease and the mfr changed over to the red. I don't like how either behave but the red is a bit better...takes longer to faom up,TC1
     
  8. Wiper Swiper

    Wiper Swiper Banned

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    We've got to be talking about a different "red grease". I've never had hot sauce "foam up". I've used it for several years and have been very satisfied with it's performance, but didn't know how good it actually was until I opened up a baitcaster this Spring that had been lubed with it a couple seasons ago. I assumed it was time for another shot. To my surprise, the moving parts were still protected and needed very little cleaning or re-lubing.

    As a side, I think the Hot Sauce oil was instrumental in my youngest son's win in his Den's Pinewood Derby. ;)

    Pricey, but you can find info here-- Quantum Hot Sauce

    The nylon bushing problem I'm sure "infects" other reels. However, I've only been involved with discussion on Shimano's models.
     
  9. creekwalker

    creekwalker Moving water...

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    Can someone elaborate on the Shimano problem? I'm having that exact problem on a Shimano spinning reel. I can't remember if it's a Spirex or other model, but if I'm fishing all day it sometimes happens and more frequently when it rains on me or I forget and leave the rod in the back of the truck while it's raining.

    The reel acts like its catching on something or bound in one spot as I crank the handle. Once past that spot it reels fine, then the cycle repeats. Really annoying when you're trying to retrieve a lure :( I cleaned and greased it last year, but it didn't seem to help for very long. Maybe I should try the "hot sauce" mentioned here?


    CW
     
  10. RareVos

    RareVos Lost Sailor

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    Can someone explain to me how plastic expands when it comes into contact with water? I've heard this as the root of the issue with these reels several times but I've never heard how this is possible. I've had several reels of different manufacture what have exhibited these problems but most were due to the interaction between the grease and water getting churned together. I do break the down, clean, and lightly grease the gears and lightly oil the bearings. I may place some strategic blobs of water repellent grease to slow the process down. I have been using one of Daiwa's "washable" reels (TD Sol) and haven't had the problem yet, although I have had a slight problem with one of the lower end reels (Exceller). The Exceller did respond better to the cleaning than either of the Shimano or Pflueger reels I have used.
     
  11. Wiper Swiper

    Wiper Swiper Banned

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    Guys, here's a link to a discussion thread on the Shimano binding issue. It's not the only one, but one which also includes a novice's "fix' to the problem. Pay attention to Hook-up's and Joe B's posts.

    I hope this works as you do have to be registered on the site to view it's forums-- Shimbindo Thread

    I'll copy and paste the good parts if anyone wants to read them and can't access the forum.
     
  12. Please do, I am interested in reading this.
     
  13. creekwalker

    creekwalker Moving water...

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    Can you post the relevant parts? I couldn't get to it either.

    CW
     
  14. Wiper Swiper

    Wiper Swiper Banned

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    Well...after opening my mouth, I'm not sure a cut and paste is going to do anything more than take up bandwidth. I'll give you a few excerpts and see how it looks.

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    I have seen many a post on here and other forums about older Shimano Stradic and Symetre binding after being dunked in the water. Way too many posts for it to be an urban legend. I have also seen a reported fix to enlarge a bushing. As I've stated in other threads, I have not experienced any binding in mine, yet. I also don't make it a habit to use those reels in wading and kayak fishing. I generally use my lower cost or expendable reels for that duty. FG
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    Now as for rain causing this failure, it seems strange that rain could actually penetrate the inner workings of the reel. Wouldn't it have to get under the spool to get on the shaft to actually drip down the shaft to get to that bushing? Maybe it isn't as easy as that. I don't know. EW
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    Quick dunking's not much a problem unless the river's chocolate milk. Silt is a reel's enemy. Once the fine dirt particles in silt mixes with the oil and grease in a reel, you need to perform maintenance on the reel or risk problems on the water. It's really not the water in side the gear box (unless its brackish or salt) its the grit/silt in the water. To test the Shimano drilled out bushing theory I dunked a shimano in a silty river for quite a while. I use red Hot Sauce. When I tore the reel apart the oil/grease was black and full of grit from the silt. Now, I'll let you decided if gritty oil/grease is good for the inner workings of your reels. HU
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    No, it isn't good but the theory behind the bushing is that once it gets wet, it expands, it has nothing to do with dirt, so any water should make the reel jam up. I'm trying to figure out is it one or the other. EW
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    Only on reels with a plastic bushing. I've determined it could be one of the following:
    1. Water makes the bushing expand and bind. Binds because tolerances are to tight.
    2. Silt gets dirt between shaft and plastic bushing. Binds because tolerances are to tight.
    3. Water/silt mixes with lubricant and lube causes binding. Binds because tolerances are to tight.
    So therefore fix must be make tolerance not to tight and whatever the cause, problem fixed.
    HU
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    As far as dunking, I think anything that was submerged for a few seconds or more, has the potential to have water intrusion. As far as rain, mine have been used in rain and snow. The binding and tolerance makes sense, but the plastic bushing expanding from contact with water doesn't sit comfortably with me. I didn't think plastics absorbed water. I'll see if I can find more info on that. FG
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    Depends on the "plastic" guys. Nylon, for instance, is porous. Nylon is not what most people would call "plastic" but if you held a nylon bushing in your hand, you might very easily think it plastic. AP
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    Aside from boring out. Is it possible to replace the offending bushing with an appropriate sized bearing? If so it would be a relatively inexpensive and easy fix. GM
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    It would have to be a very small bearing I believe a brass bushing would fix the problem. I checked with a machinist and the bushings would be cheap. The set up fee for the machine was cost prohibitive. On Sunday, I fished a Symetry 2000 all day. It not only rained, but t-storms and the rain came down in buckets. The Symetry was one of the reels that I drilled the bushing out and I had no problems. After a few days I tore the reel apart and it was very wet inside the gear box. Problem fixed. HU
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    Nylon, plastic,. whatever, if HookUp believes he has a solution by re-drilling one small hole, THAT seems a LOT easier than machining from a different material. Should be about the same work, as far as geting too the part to replace it and certainly aless to drill the hole so as long as it ould work, why not??? CC
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    The good Cap'n has a point, but I still would like to test my theory with a brass bushing. I can send you the id&od, measured down to the 1/1,000 and probably get the od more accurate - problem is there's a nipple on the outside of the bushing to hold it in place. Discussions w/ the Col have lead me to believe the nipple could be avoided by making the od 1/1000? larger and pressing it into the aluminum reel body. I've been meaning to buy some extra plastic bushing so if your game I'll order them and send you one. HU
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    There's a bunch between the lines, fella's...but, after several years of following the subject I have concluded (partly on personal experience) that Shimano definately screwed up the composition of a bushing in older Biomasters, Stradics, and Symetres. Considering that these are middle of the line-up models, their "cutting costs on components yet maintaining swiss watch smoothness" market strategy seems reasonable.

    buuuttt.....

    How many extra buckwheats do ya get going with the nylon bushing???

    My guess is engineered obsolesence, and dammed if some fishing nerd didn't figure-out the wear point. Once it swells, it seems like the second incident comes quicker than the first, and so forth.

    Cool fact is that if the rest of us are so inclined...

    ...we could save 60 bucks.

    Me?...I'll probably buy the afflicted reels cheap in garage sales...stock pile them till I'm older and grayer...and, fix them cheap providing a cushy resale retirement.

    Let's keep this low key.
     
  15. None of my reels are of the models discussed, so I have not seen this bushing and I probably don't know what I'm talking about. That being said, it sounds like my solution would be this: Run a drill bit through the center of the bushing. Then, mount the bushing on a bolt between two nuts and chuck the bolt in a drill. Spin the bushing on sandpaper to touch up the outer diameter. Put the bushing back in. Problem solved until it gets wet again, in which case I might do it again with a brass bushing (which is why I mentioned the drill and sandpaper to modify it).

    It actually sounds like all I would need to do is drill out the center.

    Afterthought: Has anyone asked Shimano if they have a solution?
     
  16. creekwalker

    creekwalker Moving water...

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    Wiper Swiper, thanks for the follow up. I don't have the "affected" models either, but I think my model might have been missed because it sound like the exact problem I have. I'll have to take it apart and have a look inside for the bushing.


    CW