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Landowners on the LMR

Discussion in 'Southwest Ohio Fishing Reports' started by Nitro750, Aug 1, 2007.

  1. To all of you that fish the Little Miami River in the Beavercreek/Xenia area watch out.

    ODNR and DP&L are out to ruin an innocent fishing outing due to outdated laws. My friend and I were recently stopped while fishing and not too politely asked to leave immediately. We had two vehicles approach us as they communicated on their CB that they had caught two trespassers. Needless to say, we had no idea we were doing anything wrong. There weren't any posted signs or any indication we were on someones river bed. It seems that DP&L is strictly enforcing encroachment on their "unmarked" property. We were told that DP&L will prosecute to the maximum extent of the law.

    However, had we been in the same location in a canoe or kayak, nothing would have been said because the OH owns the water and everything in it. I've heard about this law and really find it to be quite ridiculous. So, if a canoeist comes upon a stretch of water that is too shallow or too dangerous to navigate and are forced to leave their canoe to go around the area, I assume they are innocently trespassing also??? We pay for a statewide fishing license and cannot use a state river. I'm sure these laws were created because there are people out there that have ruined the relationship between fisherman and land owners due to vandalism and littering, etc. I just hate to see innocent people get punished for a few idiots.

    It doesn't make any sense. The LMR is recognized as a National Scenic River, just don't get caught enjoying it.

    Just be aware of where you are because the DNR is looking to site "Trespassers"!
     
  2. That law is actually not that outdated and does serve a purpose. If I had property that backed up to a river, I wouldn't want every yahoo in town on my property at will and I don't want to have "No Trespassing" and "Private Property" signs posted on every single tree just to let people know it. Chances are that it was posted somewhere, but even so, I think everyone should know that if it's not posted as publicly owned land such as a park, that it's privately owned. And if you don't have permission, then you're trespassing. And the only way an officer knows who is trespassing and who isn't, is if the land-owner identifies that person as a trespasser.

    As for canoers, if you have to pull your canoe all the way up onto terra firma just to circumnavigate rapids or spots otherwise impassable in a canoe, then yes, you are trespassing. Though typically most canoers don't set up camp in someones back yard and fish. They just continue on down stream.
     

  3. It's a damn shame that people ( DNR, DP&L, And random Jerk Landowners ) actually look to catch people on " Their " property, just to be a jerk and get people doing something as innocent as enjoying Ohios natural resources, and fishing. It really is ridiculous. Ohio needs a law, like the privately owned " Crystal Lakes". Crystal Lakes is a small community where I live with a few nice lakes in the area, and to prevent any confrontation, and over zealous homeowners surrounding the lakes. Their " law " is that Anything withing 10ft of the bank is not owned by the homeowners. So, people fishing can walk anywhere along the lakes, so long as theyre within the 10ft margin of the banks. This would be a great law for Ohio to enforce. But, unfortunately our money hungry state officials would never do such a thing, because they love the extra money coming in from citing, and fining innocent people who are doing something productive. There are rapists, murders, and other REAL criminals in Ohio that are running around free, and state officials need to spend their time doing something more productive like catching REAL criminals instead of badgering innocent fishermen and fisherwomen. I would love nothing more than to line up our " states finest ", and walk down the line and offer them a well deserved, and heartfelt SWIFT KICK IN THE CROTCH.
     

  4. Come on now, be rationale here. You're making it sound like by opening up the BANKS of the river, fisherman would instead just travel ALL OVER your land. He didnt say anything about just wondering around exploring someones private property. Hes talking about following the banks along the river, which there should not be no problem with that. And it's absurd to think people are such jerks that they would be inclined to take action against a person who is just go up and down the river, trying to stay on the bank, not bothering anyone. Those people aren't jerks because someone is doing something wrong, they are just being jerks because they know they can and get away with it, and its sickening.
     
  5. Well yeah...I do see where you guys are coming from. And I do think it's a damn shame, myself. But it only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch. It's a lot easier to deal with it up front than to go back and try to fix something after the fact.
     
  6. NKUSigEp i think i know the area ur talking about, i grew up in xenia and know the lmr pretty well in that area, and in the spring they didnt have the access blocked off and u could drive right on down the access road and walk a short distance and fish, but they put up a cable to block the entrance, but that is only an ingress & egress access for the easement that DP&L has over those lands so its best u stay off the easement, now if the land owners are up in arms there aint much we can do. if it is the same area im thinking about that easement crosses over the river so if the odnr really wanted to be butt holes all they would have to do is go back on the access road and bust people for tresspassing.
     
  7. redtailmatt

    redtailmatt Member

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    Thanks for the heads up Nitro. I have been fishing the same area for about a month now (2 to 3 times) and so far have had no probs. I was actually warned by a co-worker today about the same area. (prob the fellow that was with you) His story was the same. Thats a shame, sounds like a few have ruined it for the masses. I am surprised DP&L has taken the stance they have! Must be a liability issue or something? Good fishing and Tight Lines, Matt
     
  8. e-dub

    e-dub

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    I was stopped by the police down by Loveland while Canoeing with friends 3 years back while on private property. We were actually tresspassing, but the loveland police let us go with a warning. The also informed me however that because the Little Miami River is a State park, everywhere you are in the river is considered public land. They also went on to tell me that up to 15 feet (or yards I can't remember) from the water is considered the state park and is also public land. They went on to tell me that if the water rises on to someones property, the park still extends 15 feet past the water line. In turn making it public land. I assumed this ment during a flood, if the water is in your back yard, people are allowed to go on your property as long as you are within 15 feet of the shore.

    I never bothered to check to see if this was in fact true, but it sounded like the local police knew what they were talking about.

    Has anyone else ever heard of this law?
     
  9. i thought that if u enter a creek from a public road and waded the water u were not tresspassing
     
  10. I really find it strange that anyone can own the actual bed of any river. Even if you own property on both sides of the river, you should still not be able to own the river bed. It should be public property up to the high water mark on any river. As long as you're wading in the river you should not be prosecuted for trespassing. It should remain public land.
    But, that's a fantasy world of common sense in which we no longer live. So, as long as someone can own the river bed, they should be fined for littering if their river property has tires, etc. in it.
    I have a community sidewalk that goes through the front of my front yard. I can't stop people from using it because it's on my property. But, if someone falls because of the snow or ice on it or because a piece of the cement has broken up, I'm liable. Can anyone explain that?
    Truly confusing.
     
  11. Yup...I think it's called the flood-line or something like that? And I've been under the impression that the state owns the river bed and you are allowed everything up to terra firma to meander about. And if the river is in flood-stage, it's 10 ft. Anything beyond that is private property. But it's how you got to that 10 feet or whatever it is that counts. And I could be completely wrong here, but I know that I've read that somewhere (just not 100% sure it was for Ohio).

    I just got back from Montana a few weeks ago and that's all ya heard about really. You had a certain distance from the edge of the water or else you were busted. The water and river bed were owned by the state. Except out there, people put up barbed wire across the stream to try to keep people out. Perfectly legal to do so as long as you don't have a stake right in the middle of the stream. And it's perfectly legal to cross underneath it too. Most people don't though.
     
  12. And I know most of you are gonna sit there and say "well how can they do that" and flame me for partially agreeing with the law, but if I had a really nice spot to fish right behind my house, I wouldn't want to share it. Maybe have a few friends over but c'mon...if you guys were pulling 8 lb. bass or 40 lb. catfish out of it left and right, would YOU want someone else to know about it? And then they tell a friend, and their friends tell their friends...and so on?
     
  13. You should have no option but to share it. It's (should be) public property. As long as a person enters the river from public land, the river itself (yes even in yours or my backyard) should be open to use.
     
  14. creekwalker

    creekwalker Moving water...

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    NKU, I have exactly that behind my house (maybe not quite 8lb, but a nice fishery nonetheless). I've posted a thread on this before, but might as well chime in again. I suspect many people on the other side have never owned a spot like that, if so you might think differently.

    I didn't used to care about people fishing behind my house. I've owned the place for 8 years and 6 of them I didn't care. I finally got tired of picking up trash and the place looking like a parking lot at the county fair within days of cleaning it up.

    I've heard people say (and agree) that a few people ruin it for the masses, but unfortunately that's how it is. I shouldn't have to pay for it any more than the people who would like access to fish there. Those people only occasionally have problems accessing the water while I have problems regularly. On one stretch this spring, after putting up no trespassing signs, there were almost 14 days in a row (12 total probably) that I had to run someone off and the trash piked up quickly. The worst part is that catching someone littering is like finding a needle in a haystack, so I just quit letting people do it at all.

    As for putting up no trespassing signs, I'm getting tired of that too. People keep tearing them down. On the one path where most people access the water, I've replaced the no trespassing signs there more than 10 times this year alone.

    Then of course there's the liability issue. As ttoutdoors mentioned on the sidewalk scenario, I have the same issue where the creek crosses my land. There's a bluff overlooking the water (great for spotting fish) that I'm sure would, and probably has in the past, attract kids. If one of them lands on one of the many rocks in the creek while jumping in and if their parents are the litigious type who would they sue? Certainly not the state.

    If the state is willing to keep the trash picked up there and be liable for the land around the creek, then bring on the fishermen....I'll be the guide, after all I know it pretty well since its right behind my house :D

    CW



     
  15. The LMR is mostly private land and is not a state park in it's entirety. Private property includes the land beneath the river. If you own one side then the property line goes to the middle of the river, if you own both sides then you also own the riverbed in it's entirety. The public does have the right to navigate the waterway but not the bank. I agree with the landowners on this one. If they own the land and don't want someone on it then so be it. The Beavercreek/Xenia area has numerous public access points such as the Narrows, Glenn Thompson, and numerous bridges that cross the river provide public easements to launch a canoe. I just think if someone wants to fish the river then buy a canoe(you have a right to navigate the actual waterway), ask for permission, or be content with the public property along the river. I have never had a problem gaining access to the River in this area including quite a bit of private land. I just think think the landowners at times are demonized for simply protecting their interests and the land they own. You would not believe the problems many of them go through when owning a desirable hunting or fishing property.
     
  16. well when it comes to who owns what you have ur meandering river lines where the owner of the lands property changes along with the river if the bank is eroding the property lines follows the bank, this practice isnt followed that much anymore, now the other type of survey and deed work most of the owners have done now is by taking the old deeds which were based off of meandering property lines adjacent to the river, creek, stream, etc... are updated and eventually the river, creek, stream, etc... eventually become the property of the owner of the land (which is the tangible ground beneath the water). easements are a totally different beast, highway easements u can use to gain access to the place ud like to fish, but the cities and state are now erecting fencing to block this access and if they own it aint no fighting it, now the Miami Conservancy District acquires land all the time and eventually will acquire enough land along the banks of the rivers and such so that we all could have access, the only problem with this is the fact that there will always be someone to ruin it for us, so even if we do have access to spots now how long will that last before someone gets feed up with dealing with the idiots?
     
  17. sevenx

    sevenx "I sat by the river" N.Mc

    "who own the cheifs" "ownsah ownsah".....Some of you may get that reference. Not really the same thing but the debate is none the less the same. I see points and agree with both sides of the debate. Once again it really boils down to respect. If you continually disrespect someone "as in cw case with his property" they will eventually react. I know I use this analogy all the time in my post's and you guys are probibally saying here he goes again. This is crucial in be able to use lands owned by private land owners. When you ask permission in many case's land owners will let you and when they see you walk out with a bag of trash they appreicate that. Also a small token of appreciation such as a box of cookies from the wife or gift certificate to certain outfitters;) does not hurt either. Respect goes a long way. This is really the issue when you are dealing with a previous generation of land owner. They were taught respect and earned it. Today people demand respect but do not work to earn it. As has been stated people demand access to land and untill the laws change will have to earn it. My .02 S
     
  18. I appreciate all of the discussion on this thread and everyone seems to have a valid opinion. I understand the concerns of the landowner and feel strongly the only reason they get upset is because of a few idiots who don't respect property of others. These are the same people that pitch their trash out of their car window instead of finding a trash can. They ruin it for everyone. It's not just their attitude or lack there of while fishing, these people don't care about their neighbors, place of employment, etc.

    One thing I just will never understand, no matter what anyone says, is the ownership of the river bottom. What can the land owner do with the river bottom. What value is it, other than a tool to keep people out of state waters.:confused:

    I wish there was some sort of compromise on this issue besides the one suggestion to buy a canoe.

    Good fishing!!!

    Steve
     
  19. well nitro i can answer that question fairly easily about what can the land owners do,

    exp: i worked on a survey project a few years ago for a mining operation, they owned all the land including both side of the creek, there property lines crossed over it and sometimes met in the middle of it, well they wanted to strip the topsoil off to get to the material underneath and continue on over the creek to the other side and continue on, well being they owned the rights to the land under the water u guessed it they controled the flow of the creek and changed its flow and path, now they have 3 huge lakes that the creek flows into then eventually the lakes dump back out into the creek, but indoing so they changed the course of the creek and maybe some of the fishing characteristics of that creek, fishing might not be as good. basicly what im saying is they can do whatever they want to do with it within the laws.
     
  20. You don't own the land so you can't use that land for anything . Just like I can't pitch a tent in your front yard because I think it is a neat place to camp .
    You can float the water in a boat but you can not get out or throw an anchor out or tie to a tree .