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Should pistol caliber rifles be legalized for deer hunting in Ohio?

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Old 07-31-2012, 10:55 AM   #1
buckeye dan
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Default Should pistol caliber rifles be legalized for deer hunting in Ohio?

Should pistol caliber rifles be legalized for deer hunting in Ohio?

Submitted by cbaus on Tue, 07/31/2012 - 07:00.

BFA News
Sports and Hunting

Editor's Note: The following article was originally published in the Ohio Farm Bureau's official newsletter, Buckeye Farm News. Republished with permission.

Here's a debate taking place in Ohio's hunting community. Ohio Farm Bureau currently doesn't have a position on this issue. What do you think?

Legalize pistol caliber rifles

Michigan, Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia and Pennsylvania all allow rifle hunting in one form or another, the Buckeye Firearms Association noted in a proposal to legalize pistol caliber rifles for deer hunting in Ohio.

But the organization is quick to point out that these guns are not high powered rifles.

"There is a negative perception with pistol caliber rifles because people don't get past the word rifle without thinking high powered," said Dan Allen, a Buckeye Firearms volunteer.

According to Aaron Kirkingburg, a Buckeye Firearms leader, pistol caliber rifles are similar to pistols, with a longer barrel and a stock for stability. The group acknowledges that perception is an issue and that some education will be necessary.

"This is a tool for keeping the deer population under control and the pistol cartridge rifle is an easy, effective and inexpensive tool that appeals to many," Kirkingburg said.

"These guns have a reduced recoil and are lighter, which appeals to women, youth and those with medical conditions," Allen said. "My father has a pacemaker; therefore, he cannot use a shotgun, but he could use a pistol caliber rifle."

They also emphasized that private property owners have the final say of what hunters can use when hunting on their property.

"Ultimately the decision is up to the property owner, and if they don't want hunting on their property with pistol caliber rifles they can make that a rule for their property," Allen said.

Concerns

Ohio Department of Natural Resources' Division of Wildlife is concerned that legalizing these guns will lower access to private property because of the misconception that these are high powered rifles.

"Currently in Ohio you can hunt with pistols. What folks are pushing for is ‘why can't we hunt with pistol cartridges in rifle form? Let's put it on our shoulder rather than in our hand,'" said Mike Tonkovich, Division of Wildlife state deer project leader.

"It's about perception because we are very concerned about access to private property. We've done a lot of work with Farm Bureau trying to increase access to private property, which is where most of the deer are in the state and we don't want to compromise that by misinforming the public that Ohio has legalized rifles," he said.

Tonkovich wants landowners who are allowing hunters on their property to study the issue.

"I don't see this as a way to effectively manage our deer herd by legalizing these rifles," he said. "The positive side of it will be that it would keep hunters in the game that may not otherwise and may add some younger hunters."

Current Source: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8454
Original Source: http://ofbf.org/news-and-events/news/2676/
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:24 AM   #2
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i dont even live in ohio but in indiana where its already legal. my opinion is that if there going to allow hunters to use hand guns then they should make it legal to use the same guns in a rifle. now you have to many people out there with pistols that will take shots they just cant make, and you end up with to many wounded deer. with any gun putting your shot in the right place is alot more important than the gun you use. i think the idea of using rifles will just help alot of people make better shots. more deer get harvested and less deer get wounded to just run off and die later from bad shots. this is just my opinion.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:28 AM   #3
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Here we go again....
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:06 PM   #4
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Here we go again....
exactly....

Just like the horsepower limit "discussion" has become an annual event on the site. The experts at ODNR are never right...
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:30 PM   #5
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Only If They Are Limited To The Same Amount Of Shots As A Shotgun,And Or A Single Shot,And Only In The Legal Pistol Calibers,If You Do Not Limit The Weapons Capacity There Will Be Even More Wounded Deer Runnin Around When Joe Dumbass Shows Up With His Lever-Action .357 And Goes Rambo In The Woods-Just MY Opinion.


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Old 07-31-2012, 12:46 PM   #6
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And how many idiots would take to using 30/30's or 35 Remingtons in the same lever action guns, just trying to gain an edge?
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Old 07-31-2012, 05:48 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by I_Shock_Em View Post
Here we go again....
Took the words right off of my keyboard....

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Old 08-01-2012, 02:37 PM   #8
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The original proposal was:

Quote:
Rifle Hunting Proposal for Ohio

Any cartridge currently legal to hunt with in a handgun, would be legal in a rifle.

Black powder cartridge rifles would be legal during regular gun season.

Compliance for 3 shot rule using dummy rounds, or similar "simple" fix.

Sunset provision giving DNR an "out" in 4-6 years if unforeseen problems result.

Make these changes effective state wide if possible.
Making some accommodations for using pistol caliber rifles is not new. It's never gone away. This project is going into it's 7th or 8th year now. I've been involved with it for almost 4 years. Indiana accomplished the same thing in roughly 2-3 years.

The problem here is public perception of the word "rifle" and the possibility of hunting lands being denied because of it. Not cosmetics, ballistics, capacity or safety. We're using look-a-likes, we can limit capacity, ballistics are already inferior to what is legal and safety is dependent on the hunter which is uncontrollable in some part.

Pistol caliber rifles did not get to inherit their titles and performance perceptions like "muzzle loaders" and "shotguns". Pistol caliber rifles are just rifles to most people. People that are unaware of what shotguns and muzzle loaders have become still equate the word "rifle" to be something bad. Even if they are inferior.

We continue to reach out to every organization we can that has an interest in this subject. Public awareness and education is the focus for the moment.

Hunter support is there and the debates regarding cosmetics, ballistics, capacity and safety have ended for the most part. What is missing is general public opinion and feedback. Specifically property owners who allow hunting or have the potential to allow hunting.

Convincing those folks that these rifles are OK is the task at hand. The biggest part of that is educating the farmers and land owners about these rifles without throwing other technologies under the bus in the process. Just as important is letting the farmers and land owners know that they get to decide what is used for hunting on their land, who hunts, what is hunted and when it is hunted. Within the regulations of course.

There are still people that will not allow hunting due to liability issues. They won't even look at the ODNR permission slip which also includes a liability waiver with it and a box for hand written additional rules that the land owner can specify.

If that article opens up one more property to hunting then it's a success regardless of whether pistol caliber rifles are ever legalized. Obviously the pistol caliber rifles are the goal but keeping the pot stirred is very much a part of it.

The people that never allow hunting may never allow hunting. The people that would allow hunting opposed to that form of hunting need to know they can opt out that form of hunting if they desire. Once enough people are aware of that we'll have our pistol caliber rifles. Hopefully we gain a lot more land to hunt in the process once the landowners realize they get to call the shots. Pun intended.

There is nothing to stop the ODNR from regulating where the rifles are used on public lands or regionally either. Michigan does this with high powered rifles as I am sure other states do too.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeye dan View Post
The original proposal was:



Making some accommodations for using pistol caliber rifles is not new. It's never gone away. This project is going into it's 7th or 8th year now. I've been involved with it for almost 4 years. Indiana accomplished the same thing in roughly 2-3 years.

The problem here is public perception of the word "rifle" and the possibility of hunting lands being denied because of it. Not cosmetics, ballistics, capacity or safety. We're using look-a-likes, we can limit capacity, ballistics are already inferior to what is legal and safety is dependent on the hunter which is uncontrollable in some part.

Pistol caliber rifles did not get to inherit their titles and performance perceptions like "muzzle loaders" and "shotguns". Pistol caliber rifles are just rifles to most people. People that are unaware of what shotguns and muzzle loaders have become still equate the word "rifle" to be something bad. Even if they are inferior.

We continue to reach out to every organization we can that has an interest in this subject. Public awareness and education is the focus for the moment.

Hunter support is there and the debates regarding cosmetics, ballistics, capacity and safety have ended for the most part. What is missing is general public opinion and feedback. Specifically property owners who allow hunting or have the potential to allow hunting.

Convincing those folks that these rifles are OK is the task at hand. The biggest part of that is educating the farmers and land owners about these rifles without throwing other technologies under the bus in the process. Just as important is letting the farmers and land owners know that they get to decide what is used for hunting on their land, who hunts, what is hunted and when it is hunted. Within the regulations of course.

There are still people that will not allow hunting due to liability issues. They won't even look at the ODNR permission slip which also includes a liability waiver with it and a box for hand written additional rules that the land owner can specify.

If that article opens up one more property to hunting then it's a success regardless of whether pistol caliber rifles are ever legalized. Obviously the pistol caliber rifles are the goal but keeping the pot stirred is very much a part of it.

The people that never allow hunting may never allow hunting. The people that would allow hunting opposed to that form of hunting need to know they can opt out that form of hunting if they desire. Once enough people are aware of that we'll have our pistol caliber rifles. Hopefully we gain a lot more land to hunt in the process once the landowners realize they get to call the shots. Pun intended.

There is nothing to stop the ODNR from regulating where the rifles are used on public lands or regionally either. Michigan does this with high powered rifles as I am sure other states do too.
Buddy, I mean no disrespect, but I believe this issue was beat to death last year. And you read everybody's opinion on it. Maybe try a different forum before this thread gets shut down again....

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Old 08-06-2012, 01:40 PM   #10
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buddy, i mean no disrespect, but i believe this issue was beat to death last year. And you read everybody's opinion on it. Maybe try a different forum before this thread gets shut down again....

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Old 08-07-2012, 02:14 AM   #11
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I am confident that everyone has not made their opinion known. The odds are pretty fair that some people missed this subject the last time it was discussed. Anyone becoming a member since then would not have participated at all.

An extensive search indicates that none of the threads regarding this subject have ever been closed/locked/shut down.

This IS a controversial subject. People that are sensitive to the subject matter should exercise restraint or avoid the topic altogether by clicking past to the next subject.

With that said I welcome everyone's opinion for or against as long as they are civil. While a small minority are vocal and opposed to this proposal on this particular forum, the state data shows overwhelming hunter support for at least some inclusion for pistol caliber rifles being used in deer season. Please don't allow the former to discourage anyone from voicing an opinion.

The negative opinions may be the most relevant at this point. Public awareness and education is the focus right now as I stated before.

The people that are for pistol caliber rifles do not need convincing. Some of the people that are against it (based on information from a prior survey) are against it for reasons that are based on obsolete perceptions and inaccurate information. That needs to be addressed so that every sportsman can make an informed decision of their own.

Discuss...
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:26 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by buckeye dan View Post
ballistics are already inferior to what is legal
I believe this is your biggest hang up. Hunters, as a whole, generally want the quickest and most humane kill possible. If my shotgun has better ballistic performance, and higher energies, why would I want to carry a gun that may not get the job done? Or a gun with accuracy that may only wound an animal? I just don't understand why you are making a push to legalize pistol caliber rifles if they are inferior to the firearms that are already legal.... we don't want a bunch of wounded deer running around. We have enough already.

Also, if other states have allowed it in 2-3 years, and you've been at it for 7 years here, I believe that gives you an idea of the general hunting populations opinion about it.

And it's not about resistance from landowners. The state of Ohio could make it legal regardless of the opinions of private landowners. That's why they have public hunting areas. And most farmers around my area would be all for it if they felt it would reduce the crop damage they endure every year.

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Old 08-07-2012, 01:04 PM   #13
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Also, the problem is not the word "rifle". I use rifles for squirrels, groundhogs, coyotes and foxes. I have no problem with rifles. I would rather see high powered rifles made legal in certain areas than pistol caliber rifles. Atleast a .30-06 would get the job done...quick.

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Old 08-07-2012, 01:57 PM   #14
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It is true that many hunters migrate to the most efficient and effective tool they can afford. But I can't agree that is the biggest hangup.

If that were true we would not be using primitive muzzle loaders (not to be confused with the high powered modern inlines). We would not be using handguns, traditional bows, compound bows, crossbows or fostered slugs from smooth bore shotguns.

Some hunters, myself included enjoy the challenge of bow season or using a handgun or flintlock to hunt with. It's not all about rifled slug barrels, sabots, optics and modern inlines.

The pistol caliber rifles are quite capable at harvesting deer. Possibly more capable than flint locks and smooth bore shotguns and certainly more capable than their handgun counterparts. That does depend on the user to some degree however. I know people that hunt exclusively with stick and string type traditional bows who are more proficient than some people with firearms and regularly harvest high scoring deer to prove it.

Depending on the caliber and configuration (optics, hand loads etc) the pistol caliber rifles are on par with everything we use now. All of our neighbors are already using them effectively. They have been for some time now.

Regarding the 2-3 years part. Indiana was able to enact their regulations and create their season in that short period of time. I am sure the hunters campaigned for it many years prior. The same as here.

According to the work we have done with the ODNR the only thing stopping this from happening is public perception. That is why it is important that people understand we aren't asking for high powered rifles and dispel the myths regarding the pistol caliber rifles.

As for legalizing high powered rifles for deer season I am all for it. They do create additional concerns however. Those concerns are quickly becoming obsolete due to the progress being made with modern inline muzzle loaders and shotgun sabot technology. We'll either have to regulate the technology advances of those platforms or reexamine the possibilities of including high powered rifles in deer season as well.

The custom inlines are already hyper velocity and taking game at 400 yards humanely. Rifled shotguns are pushing the envelope at 300 yards as well. The technology potential of either are not close to their limits yet. The question is how well does what we allow now need to perform before we put a cap on it or finally give in and allow high powered rifles?

I'm not going to go there since this is about pistol caliber rifles which should already have been allowed years ago if not always.
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:02 PM   #15
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I still do not understand your push for adding pistol caliber rifles. I don't see the gain for either us as hunters, or the state of Ohio. I've honestly never heard another hunter say "I wish the state would let me carry a 30-30 during deer season". I just don't see an advantage for anyone over even a foster slug through a smooth bore shotgun. (Which is the only type of gun/ammo I use). And it surely won't lead to more humane kills.

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Old 08-07-2012, 03:13 PM   #16
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I would rather see people using pistol cal. rifles and not allowing pistols. I keep as far away as I can from anyone hunting in our group with a handgun, unless it is a single shot.
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:50 PM   #17
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See, now maybe there‘s part of the problems you’re running into, your exagerations and half truths.
Telling us that inline muzzleloaders are capable of taking deer at 400 yards, shotguns at 300 yards? Come on, do you think we’re not smart enough to know better. Don’t try citing examples, I know they exist. But they don’t represent reality. You say that only a small minority are against the idea, but it’s public perception that’s holding it back? It seems clear that is just doesn’t have the overall support of the hunting community. Maybe it’s me, but I think you’d get more respect and open minds if you were just honest and left out the exaggerations and half truths.
Personally, my opinion is the same as Leupy’s; some of the handguns allowed in Ohio have no place in the deer woods. But, this looks less like trying to get these particular guns legal, and more like a backdoor way to get high powered rifles legal in Ohio for deer hunting. I could be wrong, that’s just what it looks like to me.
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Old 08-07-2012, 06:36 PM   #18
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Doesn't really matter to me either way.

There would be some that would prefer to hunt with a pistol caliber rifle for reduced recoil and cost of ammunition as compared to a shotgun.

In fact I personally would rather see the pistol cartridge rifles permitted and .410 slugs for deer NOT permitted. The youth hunters and those looking for a light recoil could benefit from these rounds and gain greatly in performance at the same time.

I guess I just don't see the big deal either way. It really would have very little impact on what most deer hunters or landowners do today.

They offer zero gain in performance, in fact they are a reduction in ballistic performance from what we are shooting today in almost every instance.

Hard to think of any good reasons of why they shouldn't be permitted. Easy to come up with a few reasons why it would be nice if they were legal.

PS: I would be actively opposed to rifle calibers being made legal in Ohio.

Last edited by Lundy; 08-07-2012 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:24 PM   #19
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And it surely won't lead to more humane kills.
REALLY....
Hunting fatalities are becoming more and more rare. But when hunters shoot at a human mistaking them for a deer (which is usually the cause of hunting fatalities), even a BB gun can be lethal...
Poor argument of sure.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:54 PM   #20
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REALLY....
Hunting fatalities are becoming more and more rare. But when hunters shoot at a human mistaking them for a deer (which is usually the cause of hunting fatalities), even a BB gun can be lethal...
Poor argument of sure.
Humane.... not human. (Translation: kills quickly with the least amount of pain and suffering as possible)

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