So, I'm writing this because I need to vent! I have been fishing the Muskingum pretty heavily since the conclusion of turkey season with little success and no big flatheads. I fished last year a really good portion with no real success either. Last year, I blamed the high water conditions and wrote things off. I am definitely not a newbie to flatheads, but the water I am fishing is new to me. If there are flatheads around in a river, catching them is usually not a problem for me, aside from the average wait times you expect while chasing flatheads. I am fishing the Stockport and Mcconnelsville pools of the Muskingum. Yesterday, while on the river, I could not help but notice all of the limblines in the trees EVERYWHERE! There was also a boat with a few guys out setting lines with pink tape to mark limbs. That darn pink tape was on a heck of a lot of trees from those guys! Later in the evening, I happened by a few guys fishing in Mcconnelsville. I asked them how their day was going and quickly struck up a conversation. One guy said they caught some nice flatheads at a local paylake the other night....I was already ready to end the conversation without getting into a heated debate. Before I parted ways, the guy mentioned speaking to another guy at the paylake who claimed to have brought 1,000lbs of fish to the paylake last week!!! I politely stated my disapproval and told him how my past two seasons on that section of river have gone and parted ways with them.
I continued to fish last night and a shorter night tonight without a single run on the best baits in the best water I could find.
Before I get flamed for anything, I am aware the cold front may have shut things down a bit this weekend, but have been skunked plenty in prime conditions as well. I am also aware that not all limbliners and trotliners keep their fish and/or sell them to paylakes. I also hear of occasional large fish being taken, so I know there are some fish there. However, it is hard to stomach the thought that I could be wasting my time in water that holds VERY FEW large flatheads as a result primarily from poaching happening right before my eyes. Then to top things off, I got to read the post that stated a guy has a freezer full of flatheads and continues to catch and keep any and every flathead 30lbs or less.....for what is beyond me.
I feel as though, I'm at my wits end. I catch 20-30+lb flats with some regularity in other sections of the river, but not here!
Sorry for the long read, I had to vent a little even though I know many of us have been down this road before on this forum!
I just wish there were more that could be done to eliminate the poaching on our waterways and end paylakes for good. I am sick and tired of not catching fish in what should be prime hotspots, but instead I'm searching for the needle in the haystack at this point it seems. I for one, am working my way into a position to make some real changes. I'll be graduating this week from college and just scored an interview with ODNR as a fish tech. Unfortunately, the job is not a guarantee and I'll need to be a few promotions above a fish tech to have much say in how we regulate and enforce our fisheries laws. It'll be a while!
Any input is appreciated for those who would like to add anything here. How about some ideas on how we could propose further changes to current regulations?
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what is not only sad, but a recurring illness in our society today is greed. i think this is the underlying problem you are seeing. to many folks have that 'all about me' attitude and that no one else matters. i remember guys at pymatuning bragging about keeping 400-500 walleyes in a season, and while legal, and while the lake is stocked, i always wondered what motivated them to count and to keep so many. one has to eventually ask, how much is enough? i'm sorry you had to experience what a lot of us older guys have for years, but just remember that for every selfish outdoorsman, there are probably ten or more who care. move forward with your career and set your sights on making the change that is badly needed. good luck.
Thanks Rapman. It is comforting to know that so many of us do in fact care about our fisheries. However, I find myself astounded when talking to many locals in this area at the things I hear. I was approached by a fellow student a couple of years ago who openly announced to the classmates that he could get us $2.50 a pound for flatheads over 20lbs selling them to a local paylake. Angrily, I told him that my flats all go back to where they came from and we shared some words which in my earlier years would have resulted in a busted jaw for him. I have too much to lose by losing my cool at this point, but I just couldn't believe all that I had just heard. Then, last year, a friend talked me into buying goldfish from catfish island nearby. While there buying bait, the owner stated that he would be interested in buying flatheads that we caught from private waters! Seriously, how many flatheads could actually come from private waters enough to supply his needs! Against my will, I kept my mouth shut and told him that we were fishing public waters and we couldn't help him. This area is economically deprived in general and I can understand the lure of easy money. Personally, I cannot put a price on the experience of catching flatheads from their natural haunts and knowing that releasing those fish will maintain the odds of another great experience on the water.
I know there are many folks who limbline/trotline for fun and it has been a part of great outdoor experiences for many over the years. However, it has been a tool for illegal trade and in an increasing manner. I think one of two options should be taken into consideration; either consider making these methods illegal or regulating them more closely with better enforcement. It should also be illegal to sell any native sportfish species regardless of water bodies in which they originated without having a propagators license and verifiable paperwork to accompany sales of these species. You won't hear me promote government regulation often as we have too much of it already. Though, I believe our fish and game should always be regulated due to the wanton disregard for the resources which has been prevalent throughout our history. One thing is for sure, if it were bass going into paylakes, something would be in place to reduce the effects of exploiting a fishery. Bass though, even trophy ones, are a more quickly renewable resource compared to trophy flatheads.
I know I'm long winded, just covering all my bases guys!
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Be a steward of the land and water, not a cancer upon it!
CPR! Continuing dreams one fish at a time!
plan your attack (changes) slowly. keeping your mouth shut at this point is prudent. document what you see, what you hear and what you experience. it may take years to build your case, but if well established, you may indeed be sitting in the right place to make your changes. without young folks like you with a conscience, we, as a society, may further devolve into that cancer that is consuming us called greed and apathy. keep the fires burning and one day you will be rewarded.
Great postings by all! I too have fished the muskingum for years and have seen a huge decline in fish catching rates. Spots that used to produce on a regular basis are dead do to over harvesting of trophy fish. The amount of bank lines is rediculas. Almost every over hanging limb or tree is guaranteed to have a bank line on it. Good luck with ur job and making the necessary changes far over due!
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decades ago, in the dark of the night, in a situation like this, i may have cut lines, but not so sure i would do so these days. lol
The thought definitely crossed my mind! Seeing as it is legal practice to do so, provided the lines are properly tagged, I didn't want to end up on the wrong side of the law. It wouldn't look good going into an interview with something like that on my record! Also, being in a canoe and around several riverside camps, I wouldn't want to take my chances with being caught by the limbliners myself. You never know what folks are capable of nowadays, aside from the legal issues involved.
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Be a steward of the land and water, not a cancer upon it!
CPR! Continuing dreams one fish at a time!
Also, for the record: I am not against keeping any fish and harvest my fair share of panfish and eyes' with the occasional flathead or two under 10 lbs. Over the years, I have become more mindful of what I take home to eat and only take what I can use in the near future.
My father(lake Erie perch fisherman), is one who will take all he can catch and to this day has multiple pounds of perch from years ago, while continuing to harvest more. Reasoning with him about it, is not possible. He would rather take the fish to waste rather than waste the fuel to take no fish. Unfortunately, there are plenty of guys out there like him who catch and take many different species in this manner. It is a ridiculous mentality which is greatly flawed and creates waste from a valuable resource.
Just like Afellure12 seeing the jugliners on Hoover Res. running dozens of jugs since March. Maybe they're not keeping their catches and maybe they are, the truth is told when a trend showing a lack of productivity is identified. Who needs several dozen jug lines for any reason? It sounds more like work at that point which would lead me to believe that the best interests of the fishery are not being served by those guys. I cannot wrap my head around the need for greed.
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Be a steward of the land and water, not a cancer upon it!
CPR! Continuing dreams one fish at a time!
Last edited by mastercatman; 06-04-2012 at 02:41 PM.
And yet we get destroyed on this site for being protective of spots.... Sorry to hear about the limb liners. I read a article not too long ago about all the pay lakes and commercial fishing. It basically called all of us CPR guys suckers for not keeping or selling fish....
Im gonna try to stay out of this conversation. My stats on this website over the past 7 years show where i stand on this subject. Hopefully things change but i dont see it happening anytime soon...
definitely, stay legal. a slight blemish now makes your argument in the future that much harder. yes, it is hard to get some to change their minds about limiting their catch. especially if they were schooled in fish as a food procurement activity.
Ill agree with all the prior statement, we on the Ohio River in the Markland pool ( cinci area) have seen a HUGE decrease in flatheads ove rthe last 5 years and coincidently , at the same time a HUGE increase of commercial fishermen with hoop and trotlines. out of about 15 trips down to the area last year, I managed 1 measely 12" flattie in my boat and that included many tournaments with nary a flathead taken by many of the best cat guys in the region. Anyways, I was wading a stretch of Ohio brush Creek about 15 years ago and over a 1.5 mile stretch, saw litterally several hundred limb lines, none marked, and almost drowned on 1 of about a dozen bank to bank trotlines that snagged my boot laces in about 5 feet of water, really one of the scariest incidents I ever was involved with in 30+ years of wading. It wasnt hard to figure out that there wasnt any catfish in that stretch.....
Yep, thats my neighbor stocking fish.... Makes me sick. He also does the limblines too. They should definitely put a limit on flatheads, and some stricter regulations.... I never knew people actually sold cats to pay lakes, turns my stomach thinking of all this. Who is gonna start the petition? I will gladly sign! So anyways, with reading this, I was just thinking, not to start a debate, just an honest question from someone who never had done it. I am one who always releases my fish, can't stand the taste of them, but I understand when people do keep a few for dinner here and there. But what is the point of using a limbline if you are not going to keep your fish? I like the anticipation of waiting for that hit on the line, the great conversations with friends all night, and most importantly, setting the hook and fighting to being him in! With a limbline, most of that fun is gone, isn't it?
Jessmr, folks like you is exactly why I brought this up. We have new members and guests all the time who may not be aware of the problem. I know this topic has brewed on here several times before and fortunately it has created awareness of the issue. You're right, I would consider trotlines/juglines/limblines, less sporting than catching a fish on rod and reel. It's even less sporting for a paylaker to catch these fish in a small pond after they've been legally removed and illegally sold!
Salmonid, that would be terrifying to get hung up on a trotline by the bootlaces in 5 ft of flowing water! I can only imagine an experience like that! Glad to see you're still with us.
Pendog, why stay out of it? I know it seems redundant, but I'm trying to keep this flowing and your input is just as valuable as anyone else here on this forum.
As ethical sportsmen, it is our duty to raise and maintain awareness of such issues. I alone, cannot do it all and as often as the topic comes up, we should all be willing to "pitch in" to some degree. Even a simple comment of support for the cause and/or a petition signature is appreciated. Our fisheries depend on the actions of folks like us to maintain quality fisheries we may all enjoy for years to come.
Another member suggested inspecting lines for proper identification (as required by Ohio law), when lines without proper tags attached are found, photograph and report them to the ODOW county officers. Maintain a personal record of observations and how many reports you have filed. Eventually, enforcement will be "ramped up" if enough reports are made and the problem is made overwhelmingly apparent to the enforcement agency. Honestly, I feel this is our best recourse to "get things moving a little faster". Many of you see these lines all the time, how hard is it to motor over and check out a line for legal requirements and making a call to report violations? I'm going to make it a point to do so myself from now on. Be discreet and don't vandalize, just get the information, report it, and move on. "The squeaky wheel gets the oil", it's time we get a little noisier I guess!
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Be a steward of the land and water, not a cancer upon it!
CPR! Continuing dreams one fish at a time!
Last edited by mastercatman; 06-04-2012 at 07:42 PM.
I agree with you....just one question...when a catfish takes a land/limb/trotline don't they end up swallowing the hook?
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I can't say for sure. Though, the few I have seen hooked on limblines were in the mouth and not swallowed. I assume the short, stout lines set the hook fairly quick when the fish strikes. I'm sure plenty of fish do end up gut hooked though too.
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Be a steward of the land and water, not a cancer upon it!
CPR! Continuing dreams one fish at a time!
There are many people with you man. Maybe if dnr is seeing all these illegal fish sold to lakes they can just put an everything over 35" c and r? Is this a crazy request?
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There are many people with you man. Maybe if dnr is seeing all these illegal fish sold to lakes they can just put an everything over 35" c and r? Is this a crazy request?
That request wouldn't be likely considered. I believe that one fish of that length per angler is reasonable. Especially considering that few catfish anglers overall will keep a fish of that size.
If I were going to adjust any regulations directly to the fish, it would be a statewide limit for each species.
I don't understand why they decided only lakes under 700 acres needed a 6 fish limit and only on channel catfish.
I would extend that regulation to all water bodies for all species of catfish (except bullheads) and maybe fewer for blues and flatheads (3 under 35" would be reasonable) which would be meatier anyways.
The goal of our fisheries agency is not to limit opportunity by limiting take unless a specific problem arises.
Protecting only fish over 28" or 35" still doesn't help fish get to that size. I was very happy to see the regulations added, but they fall short of the mark.
Our real problem is enforcement of laws already in place though. Laws don't mean a thing if they aren't enforced. That's where we come in by aiding enforcement by reporting violations. If enough people are reporting often, you'll see changes. Our new wildlife restitution laws could really affect the illegal paylake suppliers if we can get them in the spotlights. The paylakes are protected unfortunately by claiming ignorance to the source of their fish. Take out the suppliers at the source!
__________________
Be a steward of the land and water, not a cancer upon it!
CPR! Continuing dreams one fish at a time!
Last edited by mastercatman; 06-04-2012 at 05:39 PM.
Very good post, Mastercatman! I used to make several trips down to the Muskingum a few years ago for flats, over time the fishing became poorer and poorer. And if there are any catmen from the Scioto River area, didn't the same thing happen over there? All of a sudden a bunch of paylakes pop up, then the fishing in the rivers / creeks goes to crap. We once stopped for bait at Catfisherman's Paradise cuz we knew they sold bullheads, in conversation with the kid working, he told us they would pay us $5 a piece for any flatheads we brought them.
Fortunately, up here in northeast Ohio, we haven't been subject to any of this...yet; but then again, we have fewer waters with flatheads in them. It doesn't help, though, when one of the guys running one of the baitshops tells everyone that if they catch one, make sure they don't put it back cuz they eat all the panfish - whatever. Like someone mentioned below - God forbid it were bass or walleye!
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Just like law enforcement does with drug trafficking! Find the source and eliminate the problem. People need to report. As fisherman thats the most we can do. But if you.suspect someone breaking the law can you still report them so a wildlife officer will check them?
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