Hard Cider

[yonderfishin]

Originally Posted by pal21

Question for anybody.

Where do you finr unpastureized cider?

Usually the only places to get unpasteurized cider is at an apple orchard where they squeeze it , or get the apples and squeeze it yourself. I just use the pasteurized kind but without preservatives to make hard cider. If it has ascorbic acid ( vitamin c ) added its fine but you dont want anything else added.

[pal21]

I didn't know that. I had read someplace that pasturization would prevent the yeast from doing it's thing.

[fishintechnician]

Preservatives prevent the yeast from doing it's thing. i used Motts apple juice to do mine then just add whatever spices that I want

[Dawitner]

Pastuerization should only kill the bad bugs, not stop the cider from fermenting. It probably kills the wild yeast that is present on all fruit. When I make mine I put sodium bisulfite in first to kill the wild yeast then go back the next day and pitch the type of yeast that I want to use.

All fermentation takes is sugar and yeast. I would think that the preservatives in store bought cider would not inhibit the growth of yeast once you added your own.

[Dawitner]

I press my own, I have grinder and press and can make about 10 gallons in about an hour.

If someone has an excess of apples next year let me know I would be glad to share the press. The apples dont have to be nice and the ones I usually get are not sprayed. The only thing is you really should pick them off the trees and not off the ground. The ones on the ground have the risk of carrying botulism. I also give them a bath in dilute bleach water first then fresh water to kill any bacteria.

[The Yeti]

Sorry I'm late to the party

Originally Posted by capt S

throw some cinniman sticks in with the cider and watch out gooooood stuffff!!!

It's best to add the cinnamon sticks after the fermentation is complete. The yeast would consume the cellulose in the cinnamon bark and create small amounts of methanol. Probably won't kill ya but it's definitely not good for ya.

Originally Posted by seethe303

that looks like fermentation. fermentation != distillation.

distillation (which is illegal) requires heat and pressure.

Distilling water, wine, and other such liquids uses the same process and equipment but is totally legal. It's also legal to distill pure grain alcohol if imediately afterwards it is denatured with gasoline or something like that. It's just the distillation of moonshine that's illegal without a license.

Originally Posted by Whiskerhunter

...There is a per person limit per year that is legal to make (I don't know the limit offhand).

The current limit is 200 gallons per household per year for private wine and beer making.

Originally Posted by pal21

Question for anybody.

Where do you find unpastureized cider?

A local apple orchard is always a good start - support the small business and they usually have a better product anyways. Hollemeyer's west of Cincinnati has always been my favorite!

Here's a link to Ohio apple orchards I just found:
http://www.ohioapples.com/ohio_apple...phabetical.php

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Darby Rat

Several things to note: 1.) just keep air away while the fermintation is going on, or you will get vinegar. No air=alcohol, air=vinegar.

The type of yeast determines whether you'll have vinegar or alcohol - most wild yeasts produce vinegar...so you're still right with keeping it sealed from the outside environment.

Originally Posted by Dawitner

Pastuerization should only kill the bad bugs, not stop the cider from fermenting. It probably kills the wild yeast that is present on all fruit. When I make mine I put sodium bisulfite in first to kill the wild yeast then go back the next day and pitch the type of yeast that I want to use.

Pastuerization will kill the yeast, which will stop the fermentation process. The yeast can't handle exposure to the relatively high temps the Pastuerizing process involves.

[Darby Rat]

The type of yeast has nothing whatsoever in determining whether alcohol or acid (lactic acid) is produced. It's determined by whether the fermentation was conducted under aerobic (with air available), or anerobic (no air available) conditions. In addition, yeast do not break down cellulose, they generally use sugars as a food source. But cellulase enzymes (like those found in cows stomachs), do break down cellulose, but they are not yeasts, but enzymes. Also, there is no known metabolic reaction in any living cell that produces methanol. Why would anyone want to stop the fermentation process? The whole goal of the process IS to produce as much HOOCH as possible isn't it? Not limit it. Anyway, as the alcohol level increases in the jugs (generally around 12-14%), it starts to kill off the yeast anyway, so the whole process eventually stops on it's own. Basically the yeasts own waste product (alcohol) kills itself off over time.

[yonderfishin]

The type of yeast used does determine alcohol content and flavor , thats why some kill off the yeast and use their prefered variety. So far Ive found that using wine or champagne yeast makes a higher alcohol content and drier , tart cider while using beer yeast makes a sweet mildly alcoholic cider with almost all the natural apple flavor , using regular baking yeast makes a good sweet cider as well but with a very yeasty or bread dough flavor....makes it really fast though. Using turbo yeast or super yeast makes an extremely high alcohol content but nasty tasting cider suited for distilling and making liquor. Ive read that natural yeasts make the best tasting cider but the results vary and could at times become vinegar even though no air got to it , or that is can have other bacterial contamination.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Darby Rat

The type of yeast has nothing whatsoever in determining whether alcohol or acid (lactic acid) is produced. It's determined by whether the fermentation was conducted under aerobic (with air available), or anerobic (no air available) conditions. In addition, yeast do not break down cellulose, they generally use sugars as a food source. But cellulase enzymes (like those found in cows stomachs), do break down cellulose, but they are not yeasts, but enzymes. Also, there is no known metabolic reaction in any living cell that produces methanol. Why would anyone want to stop the fermentation process? The whole goal of the process IS to produce as much HOOCH as possible isn't it? Not limit it. Anyway, as the alcohol level increases in the jugs (generally around 12-14%), it starts to kill off the yeast anyway, so the whole process eventually stops on it's own. Basically the yeasts own waste product (alcohol) kills itself off over time.

Direct quote from the WineMaker's Home Wine-Making Instructions printed by R. Allen Enterprises, Inc. 1972 - "It is essential to use a specific yeast culture, such as the montrachet yeast, in winemaking, for two reasons: 1) wild yeasts may turn your wine into vinegar, 2) montrachet yeast is so inexpensive and simple to use it is not worth the chance to turn your wine into cooking vinegar." It may be that wild yeasts are introduced to the batch through the air or that they can survive in an aerobic environment, whereas the yeasts you want in there need an anaerobic environment, but it most certainly has to do with the type of yeast.

**montrachet yeast is just a generic, all-purpose wine yeast

I pulled that out of a book, not some shady website. I was wrong on my explanation of yeasts breaking down cellulose into methanol though. It is actually the fermentation of stuff with a high concentration of pectin that produces the methanol. Whether it's through direct fermentation of the pectin or a by-product of some other reaction, I can't say. And I'm still pretty sure that yeast can and will break down cellulose since it is a form of sugar, but if it's actually an enzymatic process, I haven't read that either.

This information is coming from books, not Wikipedia and billybobs-moonshine.com. I have a decent library on the topic as I got in to it at a very early age.

[fishintechnician]

I used the turbo yeast and mine tasted pretty good a little dry like yonder mentioned but still has a good flavor, but alot of mother in it and it was slow to settle but it turned out with a very high alcohol content my guesse would be between 18-24% it has a beer smell to it and almost dry taste like champagne but still fruity and sweet........if that makes any sense. I liked it and would use it again but before botteling and after fermentaion I will pu tin smaller containers to settle

[Darby Rat]

I know you believe in the essence of the wine-making instructions from 1972, and that 's fine. But I still have trouble with line 1.) wild yeasts may turn your wine into vinegar (actually lactic acid, not vinegar). All yeasts do one thing, and that's consume sugars and make either alcohol+CO2 or lactic acid. Yes, wild yeasts (or any others) may turn your wine into vinegar, if exposed to air during fermentation. Printed material, like the internet, should always be taken for face value and never be taken as the absolute truth. Only after further scrutiny from other resources, and the rationalization process is applied, can an intelligent decision be made on it's value. The statement "the fermentation of stuff with a high concentration of pectin that produces the methanol" is also incorrect. Again, no methanol is produced. Pectin chemically speaking is a complex polysaccharide composed of the backbone sugar D-Galacturonic acid that forms plant cell walls and other structural support parts. A large amount of Pectin in plants is in their fruits. The Pectin is broken down by the plants themselves as the fruit is ripening, not by any yeasts. Certainly any yeasts present could then ferment these simple sugars. This renders the fruit soft so the seeds can be released easier. The two enzymes that break down Pectin are: Pectinase, and Pectinesterase, both contained in the plant cells themselves. My information never comes from: " some shady website, not Wikipedia and billybobs-moonshine.com" I also have a great Science library, and that's where I always get my facts. Since you have a good library too, and I think that's great by the way, go to any Biochemistry book and read the section on Glycolysis. It will clearly explain the biochemical pathways leading to either alcohol or lactic acid. When differing opinions are based upon Science, the truth usually is the clearly elucidated.

By the way, these are my textbook references:

1.) Biochemisty by Albert L. Lehninger pp.313-335.
2.) Principles of Biochemistry by White:Handlermith pp.423-444.

Hey, let's all just make some hard cider, however it's done, and have a jolly old time!

[yonderfishin]

When using natural yeasts you will also have a fair amount of other organisims including the ones that change alcohol to vinegar. Using sterile juice and adding the kind of yeast you want growing in it , and then keeping the container air tight so dirty air dont get in keeps the vinegar producing bacteria out. There is no way to keep the vinegar bacteria out of natural yeast starter , so the chances of ending up with vinegar really quick are pretty good.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Darby Rat

I know you believe in the essence of the wine-making instructions from 1972, and that 's fine...

By the way, these are my textbook references:

1.) Biochemisty by Albert L. Lehninger pp.313-335.
2.) Principles of Biochemistry by White:Handlermith pp.423-444.

Hey, let's all just make some hard cider, however it's done, and have a jolly old time!

Look, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you since we're both gonna end up with soggy shoes. Chemistry was never one of my strong points and it seems like you know a lot more than I, so I'll let you have the floor on that one. In any event, I was merely trying to help the guy based on information that I obtained from printed materials that made it through various authors and editors. And if I'm incorrect, I will attribute the errors to them. I still think it's better to add the cinnamon sticks after the fermentation process if for nothing else than to get a better flavor. I learned that the old fashioned way.

[yonderfishin]

6 of one, half dozen of the other.....both right.